/his/ — >It's NOT idol worship because uhh... umm... uhhhh... LOOK H

It's not, relic veneration is in the bible itself.

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>>18528364
>the "relic veneration" in question:

>>18528356 (OP)
Whats wrong with idol worship?

>>18528462
Da bible said it's le bad so you have to justify how icons are totally not le idol worship

>>18528356 (OP)
>I'm not worshiping an idol! I'm... uh... well, I'm..... VENERATING AN ICON, YEAH THAT'S IT!!

>>18528356 (OP)
Idols depict gods (specifically Canaanite ones that competed with Yahweh). It's only an idol if you treat Mother Mary like a deity.

>>18528495
There is a difference. If you want to know the difference, you're smart enough to figure it out, but you need to want to know the truth.

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>>18528356 (OP)
>It's NOT science worship because uhh... umm... uhhhh... LOOK HOW FUCKING MATERIALISTIC IT IS!!!!
Normies will always be idol worshippers and ideologies will always pander to it.

>>18528501
>bowing down, kissing, and praying to a picture of St. Nigerius is TOTALLY different than bowing down, kissing, and praying to a picture of a pagan deity because... uh, WELL, IT JUST IS, OKAY?!?!?

>>18528504
Why would an atheist care about iron age jewish rules from the torah?

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>>18528499
Nope! The bible forbids you from making any images at all

>>18528504
Why do low IQs constantly conflate science with a religion?

>>18528527
Reddit-types unironically do treat it as a religion, so it poisons the well a bit.

>>18528522
Sounds like you can make images of stuff on Earth. Just not of stuff in heaven, underground or the sea under the underground (the fuck is that even?)

I guess Mother Mary and Jesus would be banned because they are in heaven presumably.

>>18528356 (OP)
ikon gives you 50% religious bonus i believe.
so why won't you?

>>18528356 (OP)
>dont you DARE draw the Prophet Muhammad, he is a divine being!
>did... did you just forget to add "peace be upon him" after speaking these divine words? INFIDEL

>>18528602
Muslims at least know not to worship idols of mohammed. Unfortunately, they do worship a stone in a cube, so they're actually worse than catholics.

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>>18528499
>It's only an idol if you treat Mother Mary like a deity
You mean like papists do?

What about images found in the catacombs and homes of early believers?

>>18529032
>What about images found in the catacombs and homes of early believers?
What about them?
Would you point to the occasional idol they dig up from ancient Israel as proof that that was "right worship"? What if it's an idol of Jehovah? Surely it's still idolatry, no?

>>18529032
Not every image of every kind in every context is unlawful. These specifically are prohibited by scripture 1. Images depicting the true God 2. Images in the place of worship 3. Images made and used for the purpose of worship. Images outside of these categories are lawful, but those falling in them are unlawful.

>>18528356 (OP)
It's not idol worship because it's not an idol and we don't worship it.

>>18528364
>It's not, relic veneration is in the bible itself.
could you post the verses for reference?

>>18529148
Exodus 32

>>18528546
I don't think it's saying underground, but rather just on earth which is beneath the heavens

>>18529148
Solomon’s Temple.

>>18529238
That was worship of God, not objects

BRO YOU DON"T LOOK AT THEM
BRO YOU"RE NOT GONNA BELIEVE THIS
BUT IT LOOKS AT YOU!!!!!!

a cross is fine tho

>>18529283
As long as there’s no 2CV sitting on it.

>>18529244
Same as icons. When you venerate an icon you are asking the saint to pray for/with you

>>18528356 (OP)
How do you explain the fact that we have icons from the first century in the catacombs?
There were also icons of cherubim in the second temple.
>Yeah I go to Rhythm Rap Church and pastor Braxton with the broccoli hair cut says that the bible is Jesus
Protestants are LIVID about their gay denominations getting destroyed by conversion to traditional Christianity. The best critiques they can make are deboonked by literally five minutes of research.

>>18529296
You can apply that logic to anything a Hindu could continue worshipping Vishnu by saying he is asking Vishnu to pray to Jesus

>>18529315
We have no records of people praying to icons until Nicaea II demanded it and they didn't pray to the cherubim on the Ark in the OT
Based Charlemagne denounced Nicaea II as a fake council organized by an evil woman and upheld iconoclasm in the Holy Roman Empire

>>18529320
Vishnu is literally a deity. You're conflating people with demons that have already been worshipped for mellenia.

There's no difference between asking a saint to pray for me than asking a living person to pray for me.

>>18529327
>Vishnu is literally a deity. You're conflating people with demons that have already been worshipped for mellenia
The Bible literally says even the demons fear God

>>18529325
Once again, people don't "pray to icons" like you're intentionally misrepresenting. When you kiss a picture of your dead grandma are you committing idol worship?
Also people ask the prophets in the Old Testament to pray for them and intercede before God.
What is your canon of scripture by the way? Or do you not even know where you get your bible from?

>>18529330
You just completely missed my point, why don't you address it? Obviously I'm aware that demons fear God.

>>18529335
>When you kiss a picture of your dead grandma are you committing idol worship?
According to the Catholic church in the Chinese rites controversy? Yes

>>18529335
>Also people ask the prophets in the Old Testament to pray for them and intercede before God.
Yeah because the prophets were alive. Where do they ask a dead man to pray for them? Look what happened to Saul when he tried to consult Samuel post-mortem

>>18529336
Cool, I'm not Catholic and I denounce the Jesuits.
So you're admitting that it's not idol worship to kiss a picture of your dead granny.

>>18529335
>You just completely missed my point, why don't you address it? Obviously I'm aware that demons fear God
You don't get my point he would be justified to ask Vishnu to pray to Jesus because in his pagan religion the gods interact with each other and in Christianity demons worship god so you allow for the syncretization of the two like you've done for 2000 years

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>>18529340
I've never met anyone who kisses a picture of their grandmother every day, burns incense to her, and prays to her.

>>18529340
Do I ask my dead granny for blessings from heaven?

>>18529345
The Chinese do as part of Confucianism and the Catholics denounced what's literally equivalent to veneration of the saints as idolatry during their attempts to convert China in the age of exploration

>>18529338
The prophets aren't "dead", in fact they're much more alive than you or me because they dwell near the throne of God in constant prayer.
Again, how is asking the living saints and prophets to pray for us any different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us?

>>18529351
>Again, how is asking the living saints and prophets to pray for us any different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us?
Because no one does it in the Bible

>>18529347
"Blessings from heaven" is not a phrase I've ever heard from an Orthodox person. We ask them to pray for us - as has been the traditional practice of the Church for 2000 years - yet you're trying to portray it as something it's not.

>>18529344
>in Christianity demons worship god
Demons don't WORSHIP God, obviously. If they did then they would still be angels, not demons. They acknowledge God's power and wait for the appointed day of their destruction as mentioned in the Gospel.
The syncretism you're talking about applies strictly to Catholicism and the Jesuits, not Orthodoxy.

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>>18529351
You're not supposed to worship living saints, whether in Heaven or on Earth.

>Again, how is asking the living saints and prophets to pray for us any different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us?
Irrelevant. You need to stop burning incense unto them and prostrating yourself before them. Neither should you kiss inanimate objects like "icons."
>And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
>Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Thirdly, you make images of God, Jesus Christ, which is a sign that you "know not God."
>Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
>Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
>And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image [literally εἰκόνος, icon, in this passage] made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

You will argue semantics till you die of old age because your heart is darkened, and you want to kiss pieces of wood and pray to them.

>>18529362
>We ask them to pray for us - as has been the traditional practice of the Church for 2000 years - yet you're trying to portray it as something it's not.
Because you invented it during Nicaea II

>>18529362
>Demons don't WORSHIP God, obviously. If they did then they would still be angels, not demons. They acknowledge God's power and wait for the appointed day of their destruction as mentioned in the Gospel.
Satan walks into heaven and makes a bet with God in Job, he doesn't just sit around waiting in fear

>>18529355
I didn't ask you about the Bible, I asked you a specific question about the difference between praying to saints and praying to people on earth. Christianity is not composed solely of the Bible.
Also who compiled the bible? What is your canon of scripture? It's fine if you don't know but just admit that so I know on what basis we're having this discussion.
It's pointless having these discussions with protestants if they're not willing to explain what their interpretation of scripture even is. I have to know what your foundational beliefs are to even know where to begin to explain things.

>>18529377
>I didn't ask you about the Bible, I asked you a specific question about the difference between praying to saints and praying to people on earth. Christianity is not composed solely of the Bible.
>Also who compiled the bible? What is your canon of scripture? It's fine if you don't know but just admit that so I know on what basis we're having this discussion.
>It's pointless having these discussions with protestants if they're not willing to explain what their interpretation of scripture even is. I have to know what your foundational beliefs are to even know where to begin to explain things.
Bro if you can show me a place in the apocrypha where someone prays to people that have died I'd be okay with it even if I don't accept it but you're not even doing that

>>18529369
How do you know you have the correct interpretation of scripture? And not the ten thousand other protestant sects?

>>18529377
>if they're not willing to explain what their interpretation of scripture even is.

If the book says "the sky is blue", then that is the interpretation. Unless you believe God's Word is meant to confuse people and not reveal God's will. Bit of a silly thing for you to even believe in God at that point. But I suppose you don't. You believe in an institution.

>>18529382
>He believes God can't write a book
I hope you have enough Jesus-luck to up your "odds" of salvation. Sadly, luck does not exist :(

But, to make it perfectly clear to you, there are "three witnesses in the earth, which agree in one", The Water, The Blood, and The Spirit. Mock these three as "insufficient." Go ahead. Blaspheme the Holy Ghost and His witness.

>>18529380
First of all I'm not basing my argument on scripture, apocryphal or not. I'm asking you about the origins of scripture and how do we know it's correct interpretation. You can't even tell me what canon of scripture you adhere to.
You're telling me that you believe in "Scripture Alone" and you don't even know what scripture you have. How am I supposed to take you seriously? Do you know what a canon is?

>>18529384
Leave it to a protestant to have absolutely no clue about epistemically justifying their interpretation. I'll ask you one more time since you seem to be slow:
Given the fact that there exist different interpretations of the Bible - do you at least grant that?
Then, how do you know that your interpretation is true, and the others are false?

>>18529391
>You're telling me that you believe in "Scripture Alone" and you don't even know what scripture you have. How am I supposed to take you seriously? Do you know what a canon is?
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and giving you the Eastern Orthodox canon (even bigger then the Catholic one). Where does someone pray to the dead therein?

>>18529398
>Then, how do you know that your interpretation is true, and the others are false?
Protestants pretty much all have the same set of basic beliefs tho