/n/ — City Airports

>>2067443 (OP)
As much as I find airports hella awesome and think people are being bitches when they complain about noise (I've lived under the approach path of an airport for decades), let's be honest that this is a retarded fucking waste of taxpayer money that will have utterly marginal economic benefits.
It was already being debated whether the airport should close entirely because it was non-economical for even Porter compared to relocating to Pearson. Only boomer nostalgia about never wanting anything in the city to change, ever, is driving this idea.
And, like, I get it. I'm sad Downsview Airport closed and became an ugly reality-TV set, and then an even uglier "stadium". But life moves on.

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LCY.

>>2067443 (OP)
Seems like a no-brainer and recently Ontario announced they'll be taking over the airport from Toronto, which would expedite the expansion. It has the benefit of not being encroached by private property that would need to be secured. I wonder what their plan is to handle additional parking and services for jets, that area looks crowded now. Ultimately they could close the smaller runway to free up space - it's only 750m/2400ft long.

>>2067449
General aviation is driving runway expansions to handle jets. Airports that can't or won't upgrade to handle them will get left out. Bishop is missing so much revenue by not being able to land them, especially given its proximity to downtown. The closure of Downsview makes the need and demand all the greater.

>>2067484
>General aviation is driving runway expansions to handle jets. Airports that can't or won't upgrade to handle them will get left out. Bishop is missing so much revenue by not being able to land them, especially given its proximity to downtown. The closure of Downsview makes the need and demand all the greater.
I'm circling back and I will concede that the economic forecasting has changed since I last reviewed the topic. I mostly recall the debate in the 2022 municipal election, and there was a strong argument at the time to not renew the agreement expiring in 2033 (especially with the cost of the legally mandated runway extension looming). But it looks like the academic research was revised in 2024 and paints a slightly better picture.
And certain commitments to invest have already been made since 2022 so if we take those as sunk costs and not items up for re-debate, then this move is much more incremental progress than I pictured on hearing the breaking news.
Still, Doug Ford remains a narcissistic moron and all his ideas deserve a skeptical reaction the moment they dribble from his mouth.

Most of the airports have developed away from city centers because planes and tall structures should avoid each other, and the ones that do remain are functionally obsolete or second-string at best.

The closure of Meigs Field was a gross overreach of mayoral power but it was also not very useful as a major airport, either.

>>2067533
You can just say it was a crime. I don't know when americans turned into such cucks that they're afraid to call elected officials criminals when they do criminal things in broad daylight

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I miss TXL. Landing there was peak comfy.

LaGuardia is out in Queens and Spirit is a ghetto airline but ever since they took over the old Marine Air Terminal it feels like you’re in a small city airport with just a short walk to baggage and ground transportation. Go to Departures and it’s like a time portal to 1939 with art deco murals of air travel in the rotunda. Now if only they had a train to Manhattan.

>>2067443 (OP)
Idiotic. Should be DEEPLY outside the city with a rail that goes to center of a city. And enough of an apron that these morons arent tempted to do the most moronic thing: live around the airport....(i.e. dulles)

>>2067784
>Should be DEEPLY outside the city
Why

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>>2067785
Because the crashes are more kino

>>2067785
Because it's anti-city infrastructure. How in the fuck are you gonna have a few square miles of non-resident space in the middle of a city?

>>2067796
>How in the fuck are you gonna have a few square miles of non-resident space in the middle of a city?
Looks like they were built a long time ago and over time urbanization encroached upon them. Anything else?

>>2067798
Yep. Why do I need more? Not the thread topic anyway.

>>2067443 (OP)
I know this is heresy on a board like this but that entire airport should be close, demolished, and the whole island turned into a big park

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>>2067796
>How in the fuck are you gonna have a few square miles of non-resident space in the middle of a city?
Easy peasy it wouldn't be the first time Americans bulldozed the bits the browns live in.
Pic ex Docklands, now the new expensive part of town.

>>2068220
>Because it's anti-city infrastructure.
Cities grew and evolve over time, what would be considered a trendy urban neighborhood today would be considered the suburban fringe of the city a century ago. As air flight is over a century old, it would make sense that these airports were built far away from the urban core. Unlike other infrastructure like freeways and parking lots that pro-density proponents complain about, airports prevent the development of high-rise buildings.

>>2068220
>>2067479
Close the airport and build some housing there.

>>2067479
>>2068220
Keep the airport and build some housing elsewhere.

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>>2068416

>>2067784
Agreed. Also intercity rail would eliminate most of the <1 hour regional flights that clog up airports and overwhelm ATC.
/thread

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>>2068493
Canada is a unique country perhaps with this particular issue, which I believe the island expansion solves: the only option to fly cross country is from a major airport.
Jets from Billy Bishop have the potential to offer trips from Toronto to Halifax, Calgary, Vancouver etc. Not just the 1h regional flights to Ottawa and Montreal. This is the real game changer of the island expansion, more domestic flights of greater distance.

High-speed rail may help connect Quebec, Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto, but the Western cities and Maritime cities are still quite isolated from Toronto, which is the economic capital of the country.

Old Quito airport was quite the adventure to fly into as the city had grown up around it and the surrounding mountain made the winds unpredictable. The convenience however was off the scale. The new airport is a long taxi or bus ride into the city but you're far less likely to die.
There was a joke proposal for "Manhattan Airport" a decade or so ago that was designed well enough that many people took it to be serious proposal. The joke was that they space for the airport would come from removing Central Park, something the proposal didn't say explicitly so it was funny to see people say they were in favor of it, not realizing what that would mean for the park.

>>2068250
This is usually true for most small city airports, but LCY is pretty new, it's the newest airport in London.
To be honest even if it looks cool the Channel Tunnel and the Elizabeth Line kind of make it conceptually obsolete, it seems like its only reason to still exist is being a buffer for Heathrow.

>>2070695
mirabel died because no one wanted it or would use it. let it go my dude

>>2070981
It may serve an accidental strategic purpose, it's a secure area in the centre of a city that can take military transport aircraft.

>>2067784
these morons arent tempted to do the most moronic thing: live around the airport
Das rayciss.
Cheapest land is where no-one else wants to live.

>>2067793
One engine feathers so take power off the good one. It is sad but well documented.

>>2067496
>l, Doug Ford remains a narcissistic moron and all his ideas deserve a skeptical reaction the moment they dribble from his mouth
Although I disagree with this sentiment, you can't hate or halt a good idea, which mind you has been contemplated for the past 30 years, because the current messenger of such idea is unpalatable to you.
Modern jets are only going to get quieter, and with quicker take off and landing. We are lucky to have a government willing to fund a massive infrastructure endeavor like this.

>>2067533
The difference or advantage here is the airport is already on an east-west oriented island
The city and towers are north of it on the mainland

>>2071009
Mirabel died because Montreal gave up it's place as the country's economic centre, in favour of Quebec nationalism.
If Toronto had a Mirabel, which we do in the way of the island, it would thrive

>>2067784
Stockholm is great because there's 2 different trains to the airport and they're both expensive so most people take a detour because it's $17 extra to get off at the airport station instead of stopping at a nearby station and taking a 5 minute bus or you take the high speed train for $40
Fucking retards

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>>2067784
Atlanta doesn't have a highly developed transit system but the one thing they got right is having the subway connect directly to the main terminal building. For $2.50, you can go from any station in the system all the way to the airport and vice-versa.

>>2071499
I've had to visit atlanta a few times for work. One time the office I was going to was on top of a train station, I forgot where. So I took the train to the office, did my business, and was about to head back to the train when the it somehow came up that I was taking the train. And the people in the office where aghast and deebly goncerned. I leave the details of their skin color as an exercise to the reader.

But I digress. I ignored their paranoid warnings and took the train back to the airport anyway. Nothing happened. Should I have been surprised? We all know nothing ever happens.

Now don't get me wrong, I understand that people's "spidey sense" of danger can often be wildly miscalibrated. For example western tourists always misunderstand how safe certain countries are where there are different cultural norms around conflict resolution, and so on. Smiling means tension, etc. But I'm *pretty* sure the MARTA system is actually pretty safe and that they were just being karens. Gut feel, yeah yeah yeah. I don't know where I'm going with this. Oh right. Atlanta isn't some faraway place with the orange filter.

Thank you for reading my blog, inb4 reddit spacing, chat GPT wrote this (because it's more than a string of incomprehensible emojis).

>>2071514
MARTA is generally safe but has a chronic problem with the type of people who act in ways that make others feel unsafe. And if you look at the crime reports, because it's literally a list of crimes, it creates a perception of risk far higher than it actually is.
That some people are scared to use it is fine with me. Most of my disagreement with the rest of the transit nerds is expansion versus in-fill. Most want to expand the lines further out so the MARTA tax can be imposed on other counties. I'm in favor of not creating more enemies for endless fruitless fights over pushing suburbanites to use the system. I'd much rather they add in-fill stations and bypass tracks so they can run both local and express lines. I suspect that an express train from North Springs (the northern most station) to the Airport that only stopped at Five Points (the station where all lines meet) along the way would be wildly successful but it's nearly impossible to implement without some bypass tracks or more crossovers plus path coordination.

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>>2071295
>gave up
perfidious anglo

>>2070695
>Maritime cities are still quite isolated from Toronto,
good. fuck off, we're full

>>2071514
>>2071546
only white men are able to use public transit
Women will get shanked in the neck and noone would help them

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>>2071929
>train pulls into station
>step in
>see woman about to get shanked in the neck
>uh excuse me miss but do you need he-
>I HAVE A BOYFRIEND
>woman proceeds to get shanked
>entire train car erupts in applause

>>2071499
Toronto keeps screwing up its airport connections. With federal money we could extend Line 2 north to the airport and have a direct line on the subway. Ultimately Line 2, Line 5 Eglinton and Line 6 Finch should all terminate at a single station at pearson airport. They could have the station connected to the terminals by the existing people mover/terminal link.

Idk why this cant be done at the biggest economic centre of our country

>>2067443 (OP)
>I know most world class cities
Chicago.
No, wait. That's just mob territory.

Seattle had a great GA runway years ago. Takeoff and approach over water, so fewer crashes into neighborhoods. But Karen says, "No!"

>>2072837
Toronto is a worls class city

>>2067784
>Should be DEEPLY outside the city
Explain LGA. Particularly all the money poured into it recently for remodelling.

>>2067449
>let's be honest that this is a retarded fucking waste of taxpayer money that will have utterly marginal economic benefits.
Billy Bishop is extremely pleasant to fly out of compared to Pearson. I can't understand why you would think so.

>>2071553
I'm not going to read an essay about why French Canadians are actually the ubermensch and colonial victims at the same time

>>2072230
>Toronto keeps screwing up its airport connections. With federal money we could extend Line 2 north to the airport and have a direct line on the subway.
You want people to take a 2 hour subway ride to downtown?

>>2068461
What a fucking disaster.

>>2074300
What is there to explain? Shortsightedness, always. There is no argument that water front land is more valuable as a mile long runway for 200 ton tube with wings, full of strangers, blocking local use.

Cities belong to the people who live there, not tourists.

Incidental I was at both lga and jfk for the first time only once on the same day. I qas astonished two major airports where 30 minute drive from each other, even in one of the most dense, wealthy cities in the world. It was doubling society destroying stupidity in an hour. I went past the jersey airport a bunch when I was driving. Thats better other than lack of vertical integration, taxwise.

Considering that, its a shame Philly and NY didn't figure it out to put a airport exactly equadistant tween them. Would have made a great border, so they never grew together, or share just for resources like the great lie of BWI.

>>2075740
>Communist kid whose entire curriculum consists of youtube videos tells everyone how they should live, work, and get around.

>>2075740
>The capital city of world finance and diplomacy should have the same airport setup as a mid-size European city

Hmmm looks like 15 minute city retards are BTFO yet again.

>>2075762
Post the business case then, Dougie. Show the math.
He won't because it's just bullshitted infographics from Nieuport, once the brown envelopes have been taken out. That's why not even the fed's public consultations can do more than, "do you support candy and unicorns? YES GIMME GIMME / NO I HATE EVERYTHING".

>>2075742
Anarchocapitalist, actually, but as a hyper irresponsible, projecting commie fraud that you are, its an easy mistake to make....

>>2075747
Absolutely. How else do you induce responsibility?

>>2075762
>15 minute city
Oh! He heard a term from a lefty! Now watch him build his entire personality around "rebelling" and still pretend he is a person!

>>2075780
>Post the business case then, Dougie. Show the math.
Billy Bishop is a far superior airport experience at the moment, jet service demand would reach capacity immediately. You probably have never even flown out of it.

>>2075815
>Absolutely. How else do you induce responsibility?

>Anarchocapitalist
>Having any conception of responsibility
lmao