/tg/ — Why is Warhammer so domminant?

>>98190822 (OP)
Brand recognition + physical stores (which reinforce the brand recognition). They're the Apple of miniature wargames.

>>98190822 (OP)
Battletech tries, but it suffered from IP blunders, reduced market size international, and lack of popular side media (a less autistic video games than Batteltech or the Mechwarrior serie)

>>98190822 (OP)
What a flop about Armageddon. Every copy made will be sold just like every starter set ever.
And it's the setting. That's what it has always been even back in 4th the rules weren't the best.
I just wouldn't war games if it was warmachine or whatever else.

Because 40k is a cult and warhammer piggies are quite good at converting others to that cult.
Just look at how long 40kids have been obnoxiously going to other sci fi communities and bragging about how 40k is le most hardcore setting or drawing spehs muhreens killing aliens of other settings.
at least 15 years ago most of the people doing it actually painted miniatures nowadays 99% of them have never even touched a miniature but are secondaries who consume their warhammer slop through vidya and regurgitated youtube lore
they're a bunch of insecure consumerist manchildren obsessed with telling other people that their shitty 80's ripoff setting is the modern equivalent of shakespeare

>>98190822 (OP)
>high prices
Are they really when you factor in everything? Production sites in the UK instead of China, rent for tons of stores across the world, etc. Plus if you're poor, you can always get the minis on a thriving second hand market. I know I do.
>poor rules quality
I don't know, I'm having fun.
>Games Workshop's overall evilness as a company
>why do pigs keep slurping from the trough
Criticism of GW always seems to veer into anti-capitalist territory.

>>98190822 (OP)
How is GW evil? Are they poisoning some local water supplies or employing children to make miniatures with 14-hour workdays in unsafe factories? Going by the OP, I'm sure you have a game system in mind you believe should have succeeded but didn't, so I'd be curious to hear what that is.

>>98190822 (OP)
>Why has no other game emerged as an alternative?

Because despite your hatred for GW and Warhammer, you seem to be blind towards all the alternatives out there, while Warhammer lives rent free in your head, and you keep thinking about why it is so big, instead of thinking about how to paint your Halo Spartans, or how to structure your Starcraft Protos army, or what Stargrave Crew you should bring to the next scenario. That is why Warhammer is so dominant.

>>98190919
Is the Halo wargame any good? I was tempted to buy the starter set.

>>98190965
Its based on Mantics Firefight rules, which are good. They tweaked them a bit, and added a mechanic for shields, items spawning in the map and also a respawn mechanic to make it feel more like a video game.
If you have nostalgic feelings towards Halo vidya, then go for it. Its good.
If you dont care for Halo, nor for the classic TDM video game feel, then i guess there are other/better games for you out there.

>>98190910
Agreed. The only argument I can see for GW being evil is that, as with any shareholder company, they're obliged to create value for the shareholders. But by the standards of US megacorps they're surprisingly moral: they do keep production in-house in the UK, they reinvest into the business and they care a lot about brand quality. Investing in GW circa 2012-2016 was an incredible investment if you were willing to bet on them. Probably around 30x value and dividends every year.

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Meanwhile I prefer to hang out at the warhammer shop with my friends painting minis and rolling dice, or enjoying my gundam assemble minis, my trench crusade minis and my other minis from independent sculptors. That's just what happens when you focus on actually enjoying what you like instead of making drama and controversy your primary interest.
By the way, I'm really looking forward to the armageddon box. I think an ork boy will be the best mini to paint first.

>>98190828
This.
Also some other factors, if you want to play a game, why buy into some fringe game no one else plays. If you you buy into something GW you are guaranteed to find other players.
They also have the constant release cycle. As they control the IP they can do it, it drives FOMO and also the fact that there's always something new. Historical you have everything exisiting. Stuff based on other IPs e.g. Marvel/Starwars etc you can only give minis of stuff that exists. Other unique TT based IPs are never as big as Warhammer thus even though they can create a constant product cycle, they will never have the same dominance.

>>98190919

>>98191029

It's hard to start other games as you know people play Warhammer.
Where our group has managed to get other games going is we have talked about non-GW games, one has piqued the interest of a couple of people who buy in to test. Sometimes others get involved, sometimes not. But the group was formed through Warhammer and GW games still make up more than half of the games being played

>>98190822 (OP)
>Games Workshop's overall evilness as a company
What evil other than prices?

>>98191036
For sure, but as long as the group comes together and plays (any) games regularly, thats where the fun is, isn't it? If its the right people, any game is fun if played together, even if, technically, some other games might have better rules. In the end, tabletop wargames are still a social thing mainly.
I would rather play 40k (which i dont play actually), than not play with my friends at all. Luckily we play Necromunda as our main game these days, with a bit of dabbling into other skirmish games.

And if you dont like the social aspect of it, or simply dont want to play what the other people of your group play, i think there are pretty much no games on the market these days without some sort of solo rules available, most even officially supported. Even GW released solo play options for Kill Team.

>>98191057
The biggest one was scaring away fan animations when they were in their heyday.
Some nintendo tier stuff games workshop did there.
If I had to guess why it was to prevent any possible negative misperception of the ip made from fan animations.
But mostly so they could put out their terrible warhammer plus program.

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As someone who grew up spending Saturdays at GW, packing my backpack with ice cream boxes with kitchen roll padding for all of my miniatures; who is now mostly an /awg/ and /grog/ type guy who just loves random miniatures and simple games, I just don't get being part of the cult. I do wish I'd bought some GW shares back then though.

Like, you're telling me they're actually keeping track of GW's release schedules, from Twitch stream hype to months later when [product] goes on pre-order and then they queue online or fight at their local LGS for the latest FOMO box when GW only send the shop half their order? Also they're going crazy for every £80 limited edition Black Library book with free colourful bookmark?

Just sounds exhausting to me. These days I'd rather go to a local wargaming show and pick up some random old metals for a couple of quid each and dream up ways of adding them to one of my little warbands.

I have the odd Warhammer Underworlds warband but even with them, I'm apparently lucky to own them as they only have an initial production and then you might see them again 2 years later. Same for random stuff like the Zoat they made, gone are the days you could order miniatures from the back catalogue from the Mail Order Trolls.

Especially when the main games themselves now look like this. It all seems a bit mad to me.

>>98191087
>Like, you're telling me they're actually keeping track of GW's release schedules, from Twitch stream hype to months later when [product] goes on pre-order and then they queue online or fight at their local LGS for the latest FOMO box when GW only send the shop half their order? Also they're going crazy for every £80 limited edition Black Library book with free colourful bookmark?

I dont think the majority of people does that. Sure, some hyper invested nerds/retards certainly do, but not the majority.

Following the release schedule isn't that hard desu, every sunday they post what will be up for the following weeks preorder. I get a newsletter from my lgs, with quotes from the warhammer page, and its either interesting, or i ignore it immediately. And i think thats how the majority of peoples modus operandi.
Besides that, lurking on /tg/ pretty much makes it impossible to miss any relevant news.

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>>98191099
But like, how does that actually fit into making an army, a task that is already hard enough, and not just buying piles of boxes?

>>98191087
The competitive guys who swap factions based on the meta and follow every release are nuts to me. I will say if you just play a couple of factions hopping on the release train when your one comes around isn't really much of a consumer ask. This probably isn't true of one of those factions is space marines, I guess, but that isn't a problem I have.

It is mental to me GW have some of the best sculptors in the world and are keeping them uncredited in Nottingham working for some dogshit UK standard wage. Like god damn.

>>98190822 (OP)
Xwing was dominant for a hot minute before the owners killed it by releasing an incompatible 2nd edition

Is Darkwater really considered a flop? I kinda missed the launch and I see there's some stores that still carry boxes in my country. Which doesn't scream flop to me. It's no Cursed City flying off the shelves and being scalped to high heaven but that seems like a good thing no?

>>98191190
People now think about GW in the same terms as say EA or Ubisoft etc., instead of other wargaming companies like Mantic or Warlord or Fantasy Flight or CMON

Which makes sense financially.

But spiritually, you can tell their fans are Warhammer™ fans and not really miniature wargamers.

>>98191190
people mainly bought it for the minatures (and boy there were people who wanted those minatures even despite its price), but the actual game is kinda meh. I had fun playing with flesh eater court hero's, but as much as I like pretty much all of the playable good guy characters, I dont think they were quite fun.

>>98191206
I don't understand your answer. Let me rephrase my question, is Darkwater worth buying? I do enjoy a good boxed set and the mechanics with the map book look fine to me. 49 minis a bit too many for me, 20 or so is preferable as my painting skills are pretty limited.

>>98191220
No warhammer game is worth buying unless you like warhammer™

>>98191220
>Is Darkwater really considered a flop?
>People now think about GW in the same terms as say EA or Ubisoft etc.

Like nobody would ever say Frostgrave 2nd edition "flopped" because they're not thinking in those terms

>>98191190
Anything that doesn't sell out instantly is a capital f-flop even if GW themselves later come out and say it was an enormously successful product. It's the /v/ tortanic mentality. Darkwater apparently has ass rules, which might mean less people are picking it up post-release than might normally get a WHQ product. It's still pretty solid from a model perspective.

>>98191220
As above, there are better products for this kind of experience. The Darkwater campaign is phoned in and has a couple of extremely tedious scenarios. Just get Gloomhaven or Frosthaven. If you wanted it for the Nurgle minis, I would say it was an OK buy.

>>98191190
>Is Darkwater really considered a flop?
Yes, but not by everyone, and certainly not by GW.

> It's no Cursed City flying off the shelves and being scalped to high heaven but that seems like a good thing no?
It is absolutely a good thing for the average customer.

We have this paradox situation that people claim everything that is not sold out within 1 minute everywhere is a flop, while at the same time, whenever it happens they cry bitter tears because of all the evil scalper bots got a box and they did not. And GW finally should make more boxes.. and nowadays, GW seems to managed to increase their production capacities, and people actually can buy a starter box a week after launch. Which is, idk, what should be considered normal. But for some retards this is a sign of GW already financially struggling.

>>98191085
So fucking nothing then?

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>>98191245
>Which is, idk, what should be considered normal. But for some retards this is a sign of GW already financially struggling.

Exactly it's just really fucking weird.

All for people to do stuff like this anyway.

>>98191220
>Let me rephrase my question, is Darkwater worth buying?

If you like the miniatures enough: yes
If you like the idea of playing a mediocre (not bad, but also not as good as other such games) dungeon crawler game with a campaign "story" within the AoS universe. Then yes.

If you dont care for Warhammer, and you dont really care for exactly those miniatures, you can get better dungeon crawling boardgames.

Its not a horrible game, neither was Cursed City or Blackstone Fortress - or any of the other GW boardgames - but nobody would claim those are 10/10 gaming experiences either. But if they tick a number of boxes for you, they can be played and can be enjoyed, despite some flaws.

>Dungeons of Enveron (Maladum Starter set)
This one is better, gameplay wise, in my opinion. It also comes with lovely cardboard terrain, but the miniatures are clearly inferior to what GW offers (but also not downright horrible in quality).

>>98191268
Man that is one funny fucking picture.

>>98191268
People love drama and love to stir up shit.
GW was in a somewhat bad situation that during covid there was so much demand for their products, and they could not keep up. This just created the illusion that whatever they release, is sold out within a minute. Stores would only get 2-3 boxes of a new release, or sometimes their order was not delivered fully, and maybe customers got burned because they could not buy whatever box they wanted.
And now, GW finally managed to produce more stuff. I really hope this becomes a trend, that whatever they release will stay on the shelves for a few weeks at least. This would take away so much stress and tension.

>>98191234
>Just get Gloomhaven or Frosthaven.
Those two are flawed in their own special way. (i'd recommend to check Gloomhaven on steam before buying that expensive game)

>>98191009
Owning their own manufacturing is one of the things that actually keeps them profitable over time. At no point does a chink who is unaccountable to the law hold their entire business hostage and demand an additional percentage.

>>98191190
Sales wise no, sold out everywhere. But it's a pretty terrible game.

>>98191068
100%. But you need to form the group first and generally it's through GW.
I have a Necromunda group too which is great as no one power games and just plays their dudes like the crack head retards they are

>cool minis
>cool lore
>cool games
it's just that simple. people will froth at the mouth about how actually their lesser known indie gem of a game is better but it's just never the case in reality. some examples
>infinity
cool minis, the game sounds cool but nobody gives a fuck about the lore
>malifaux
cool minis (hard plastic even), cool lore, potentially cool game except instead of being a dice game it's played with playing cards so if you're not rainman you can just skip the gameplay, this is why the game never gained popularity despite having cool minis and actually some borderline pinup/coomer minis
>some company that outsourced mini production to wargames atlantic
probably has cool minis in plastic thanks to based wargames atlantic but if you're outsourcing mini production you're not in it for the long haul and your lore is probably shit and nobody knows if your game is good because nobody ever bothered to play it
>muh historicals
stop. this is for autists only and will never have normgroid appeal.

Models that appeal to a wide group of wargamers.

>Cool lore
>Unique aesthetic
>Brand recognition

That's really it. 40k is propped up by its setting more so than anything else. Everything else is just derivative slop.

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>>98190822 (OP)
Popularity is a thing that builds upon itself. People naturally gravitate towards the most popular option _because_ it's the most popular, regardless of any other qualities or flaws it has. This is why shit like Windows is still the global standard despite every human hating W11. Picking the most common option will mean you have many peers and will thus have an easier time getting assistance, finding opponents etc. Warhammer 40K is objectively one of the worst games ever invented (to the point that its own fans will tell you, with a straight face, that playing the game is not the point of the game but painting the stupid fucking figurines is) but because it's popular, it remains popular.

>>98190873
It doesn't help that battletech is basically all mechs. 40k has mechs, but also infantry and tanks and monsters and bikes and planes, etc.

>>98192333
>but also infantry and tanks and monsters and bikes and planes
battletech has had that for ages

>>98191009
Keeping production in the UK isn't a fucking positive. I don't give a fuck that GW keeps 300 would be meth heads off nottinghams streets.
If they had factories damn near everywhere else, production would be way up, supply would be higher, and they could have fucking cheaper prices WHILE making MORE money.
All the UK does is hold them back and fuck over everyone who ISNT in the UK.

>>98191190
The game is, quite literally, mechanically broken.

>>98190822 (OP)
The answers are gravity and infrastructure.

Warhammer is the biggest and most recognizable thing in the space. Which means that it's going to have the easiest time pulling in prospective players.
Sure, that other wargame might appeal a bit more to you. But you've never heard of it. And you don't know anyone who plays it. But you've heard of warhammer. You know people who play warhammer. You know that there are people playing warhammer you could get pickup games against. So you pick up warhammer. You got pulled into warhammer's gravity well.

Then in addition to that, Warhammer has advantages in terms of scale. Games workshop is, frankly, bigger than most of its competitors. And sometimes just having the weight to throw around is enough. Specialty game stores do not have to be sold on if stocking warhammer is a good idea, much like they don't have to be sold on if stocking Magic or D&D books is a good idea. It is. And GW knows it, and uses that to its advantage; did you know that GW requires stores to dedicate a certain amount of their space to warhammer? And that creates an impression. There's a huge section of the store's wall that's ALL warhammer products. Warhammer is so big. Oh sure, there's a rack of stuff for another war game, but look at all that Warhammer. It must be so much more popular. Your LGS is, unless they've got a ton of floor space, forced to give GW more space than other wargames, and that creates an impression in your mind.

And then hey, what if a game store says "fine, fuck you" to GW. If it's a small market, probably nothing. I knew this small store in a philly suburb that was all Privateer Press games and card games because it was that or sell ONLY GW products and give up their play space for GW product. But that was a small loss.

But if there is an untapped market and the local game store isn't playing ball? GW also runs its own stores. And they might just pop one down. And create that closed GW loop.

>>98190822 (OP)
A bunch of simple things that overlap.
>got there early
>war in the name, I shit you not this is some of it our entire culture is built on World Wars as foundational
>Space Marine is the protagonist, Marines are a very cool and popular image, again western culture and War, combined with hero dude who is strong and doesn't afraid of anything
>realized they could appeal to 'competitive' side with editions, codex creep, etc. to sell models then start it all over again next cycle
>realized the could appeal to nostalgia side with choked release cycles that leverage fomo and could get everyone to buy hero dude army again and again with a gothic hat
>changed fluff to lore and crank out so much of it there's endless free advertising and mental market capture
>evocative splash cover art of big hero marine doing war
>creating a consumer identity with the above and becoming a lifestyle product in step with nerd bazinga expansion in the 2010s.
>video games


Doesn't hurt every other wargame out there has unbelievably retarded mgmt.

>>98192333
>>98192638
Battletech has never had the ability to make large quantities of sales. The scale of the game is built around smaller operations and force multipliers rather than mass battles that doesn't map over to getting your customer base to spend nearly as much on a regular release cycle.
That being said, I don't think battletech is trying to compete with warhammer as their goal. They do by being wargames and the overlap there but their business models are very different. The battletech intro boxes are complete games, you never need to buy more. It might be a gateway but its not designed around being incomplete. GW starter boxes are more like game samplers compared to the 'full' game encouraged by the rules design and sales methods.

>>98191268
What am I looking at here?

>>98192973
an lgs with people playing using a lot of a single unit, because its meta.
Its not a tournament though, as the unpainted unbased models would lose the player so many points they wouldnt be competitive.

>>98192659
>fuck over everyone who ISNT in the UK
Good.

>>98192698
thats the answer why it stays ontop. And not a very good one.
First how did it get ontop, and wargaming isnt cloud compute a monopoly is much much weaker.
Warhammer lore as a whole is stolen from so many places, that it means most people like not just 1 faction but multiple, and with the books, and videogames, have consumed warhammer often for years before playing

>>98192659
its the UK or china, I would rather pay more for western goods.

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>>98190822 (OP)
>Why has no other game emerged as an alternative?
Look around you, there are more competitors doing well than before. I think people largely have been priced out of Gee Dubs and are looking into alternatives. If you want better rules then you can easily find them, like Corvus Belli's Infinity, with overwatch mechanics and opposed rolling it makes every turn engaging and lethal.

>>98193254
40k isnt a very expensive hobby. People really arent going to be priced out of it in a meaningful way.

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>>98192638
As a token presence, but the focus is nearly always mechs. 40k has pure mech factions, but also ones that focus on all the others (except planes). The diversity of factions is a real contributor to the popularity.

>>98193433
it's one of the most expensive hobbies, wdym

>>98193494
cheaper, than drinking, pc gaming, mountain biking, shooting, wood working,
Fuck MTG makes 40k seem cheap. And it is actually its biggest competitor.

>>98190822 (OP)
Each time I've heard a big buzz about some wargame with plastic minis they fail to live up to the hype in terms of quality. Looking at conquest in particular. Also, licensed video games. TWW3, Darktide, and Space Marine 2 roped a lot of non wargamers into GW wargames.
>flops like darkwater / armageddon
Darkwater has sold quite well in my area. Armageddon also seems poised to do well. If you want to talk about flops, look at the aos launch box. I think my lgs still has like a half dozen.