/vrpg/ — EXP is an outdated and obsolete mechanic. Games should rewar

>>3965618 (OP)
To some degree I can agree but I also found EXP to have potential to be played around with.
Fire Emblem games for example, forces you to decide which unit should be fed EXP. And absolutely not let Jagens take those away from you.

>>3965619
I'll admit that's a rare example of a game that does it right since it's technically a limited resource due to battles being do-or-die.

>>3965618 (OP)
>Games should reward exploration, completion, and engaging with the mechanics, not grinding.
This is a significant part of what allows Zelda to be better than the entire RPG genre. It's a better realization of what RPGs ought to be doing that doesn't make the same mistakes.

>>3965618 (OP)
>Games should reward exploration, completion, and engaging with the mechanics
Perhaps rewarded with some sort of… experience… points?

>>3965632
Equipment, abilities, party members, classes, items, literally anything beyond "This number makes these numbers go up". Take some notes from SaGa for example.

>>3965653
>abilities
>classes
What if there were some sort of arbitrary quantifiable unit to track progression towards these things?

>>3965618 (OP)
Fighting enemies IS "engaging with the mechanics" you stupid nigger
Stop giving XP for combat and you just incentivize speedrun bullshit to skip encounters, aka not engaging with the mechanics

>>3965618 (OP)
Mate, you haven't had to grind the SNES. Mind you "no grinding" doesn't mean "I can skip all combat except bosses".

if i remember correctly, Pillars of Eternity only gives exp for quests, filling in the map, and bestiary entries, so you can't grind respawning enemies for levels
and being a faux-d&d crpg, leveling gave you options to expand and refine your build rather than just being a direct power increase

>>3965657
Quests to find teachers, unlocking through story progression, skills being tied to weapons and equipment?

>>3965618 (OP)
That's not a bad idea. I agree with you.

>>3965632
>>3965709
>"This number makes these numbers go up"
That's literally how video games work on a fundamental level, retard. What do you think happens in this hypothetical game where you get new shit by finishing quests or talking to the right NPCs? Under the hood it's all making a number go up, or giving you more ways to make enemy numbers go down. Any "innovation" you come up with is just going to accomplish the exact same thing as experience points but with extra steps
>b-but GRINDING!
You know you don't HAVE to have infinite random encounters or respawning enemies, right? The player is only going to be able to get as much XP as you let them, if you don't want your players grinding you can just literally make it impossible to do.

There's a reason why Chrono Cross is the only game to use its progression system. Reinventing the wheel just tends to leave you with a cart that can't go anywhere.

>>3965653
>Equipment, abilities, party members, classes, items
Depends on how you do it but those seem to be sidegrades (don't have to be to be fair), where lvl up is an upgrade.
Sidegrade is not always useful, upgrade is.
It may seem like the point but you swap "damage and hp inflation" to "Another 'reward' that I won't use".
Elden Ring has both. When I level up it's nice, when I find some incantation not for me it's like spitting in my face (incantation that is useful does feel good of course)

If you want to make those upgrades and you give me stronger and stronger equipment and abilities, the power curve would be out of control, unless there is only 1 way to play, I guess than it would make sense.

Only game that comes to my mind and has done upgrades without levels is Sekiro.

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>>3965618 (OP)
whatever you say faggot keep away from my series then if you're this retarded

>>3965619
There's nothing wrong with giving Jagens some exp.

Maybe you could just play different genres of games from time to time instead?

>>3966098
>There's nothing wrong with giving Jagens some exp.
Yeah let's give Marcus all the EXP. Great advice.

>>3965619
>>3966098
>>3966170
>some
>all
overfeeding your jeigan is a noob trap
completely benching your jeigan in the earlygame is also a noob trap
anyone who's competent at playing Hector Hard Mode will tell you (correctly) that Marcus is one of the most important units in the game

>>3965659
>Stop giving XP for combat and you just incentivize speedrun bullshit to skip encounters, aka not engaging with the mechanics
>clever ways of handling an obstacle shouldn't be rewarded so I can grind like an MMORPG
Spergtastic argument.

>>3966061
>Disgaea
You are brown.

>>3965618 (OP)
What is it with these "X is an outdated concept" mentioning core elements of the RPG genre? If you don't like RPGs just play a different type of game. Leave RPGs alone for those of us who enjoy these games.

>>3966490
>Leave RPGs alone for those of us who enjoy these games.
I absolutely refuse to. RPGs have trashed the quality of gameplay of most turn based games so that they cater to tards. This needs to be fixed.

>>3966490
We can't just have threads. Every thread must be lousy rage bait.

>>3966210
I just need him there to act as a barrier/funnel to get enemies to attack the units I actually plan to use.

>>3966682
If you genuinely want to change opinions, consider starting an OP with reasoning behind claims, rather than simply making inflammatory statements.
>EXP is an outdated and obsolete mechanic.
Why?
>Games should reward exploration, completion, and engaging with the mechanics, not grinding.
Why?
Etc.

>>3966490
You can love something while recognizing its faults.

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>>3966490
>>3965622
>>3965653
These fags just want to play Zelda, seeing numbers on the screen triggers them because they are low IQ. Rather than just accepting that they don't enjoy RPGs and moving on to games more their taste they stamp their feet and demand the entire genre change to accommodate them. Skyrim was designed for this exact audience btw.

>>3967045
>seeing numbers on the screen triggers them because they are low IQ.
>they stamp their feet and demand the entire genre change to accommodate them.
>Skyrim was designed for this exact audience
Have you ever modded Skyrim to put floating damage numbers on screen? It’s great, can’t go back again

Infinity engine games gave exp for everything including combat. Progression systems are fun.

>>3965653
Or just reaching story objectives?
When I played Witcher 3, the best reward I experienced was finding Ciri. I still choke up at that scene.

>>3967028
Yup

>>3967091
A story unfolding is definitely a factor that makes me finish a game.

>>3966490
OP is an idiot, but you don't NEED exp to have an RPG. I sincerely think every /vrpg/ user needs to read at least one non-DnD /tg/ rulebook in their life, because some people here genuinely can't conceive of RPGs that stray too far from what Gygax made in the 80s.

I think posts like OP's are born of people who are essentially reinventing the wheel and can't express it properly. Rather than thinking "What would it be like to not have X feature?" they immediately jump up "X Feature must be removed from all future RPGs". I swear I don't see this zero sum mindset in any other videogame genre.

>>3968295
>>3968295
>I swear I don't see this zero sum mindset in any
Managed to bait a reply out of you, didn't it

Welcome to 4chan

>>3968296
At least you admit the thread is bait which was clear to everyone.

>FF7 Rebirth
>open world
>should we do rare materia, armor and accesories as exploration rewards in optional dungeons and stuff?
>nope they are all chadley quest rewards and on the main path
WASTED

>>3968620
Chadley IS the challenging optional content, doofus. The Meridian Ocean materia can only be acquired by beating the game's superbosses and duo summon boss fights.

>>3965618 (OP)
I like individual skill levels, like sword proficiency making the character more likely to land blows, and land them squarely or parry incoming attacks when they're using swords, or turn an incoming square blow into a glancing one, or redirecting it from a vital location (head/face/neck) to a non-critical one (shoulder/hip/forearm)

I don't like EXP giving character more hit points and damage. HP should basically static and set during character creation, damage should be a function of the character's strength the weapon they're wielding, and how square/glancing the blow was and how vital/noncritical the location they hit was.

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>>3966481
And then in games that have both, the optimal play is to first bypass the combat encounter, and then going back and fighting all the enemies anyway.

>>3965618 (OP)
If the RPG has some open world or sandbox-y elements: leveling by doing is the best for me. I just enjoy using a skill and seeing my progress as I use it more and more. It also allows for some breaks in your playthrough: for example in Morrowind I always enjoy the moment where I got a good foothold and can start working on skills like Alchemy. Having to go buy the necessary equipment, going around traders for ingredients, exploring the map while being focused on picking up plants instead of just going from point A to point B...
If the RPG is somewhat linear, the next best thing in my opinion is the Underrail Oddity system. It removes any issues of "missing" XP from different playstyles (Human Revolution had this problem with stealth and non-lethal giving way more XP) and you can also easily reward exploration. I don't know if any other game has implement such a system but if yes I am curious.

After experiencing those two systems it's always a bit of a letdown going back to the old get XP from beating up people or completing quests -> level up a completely unrelated skill

>>3965618 (OP)
Any other reddit-takes Mister r/Imafuckingfaggotpleasefuckmyface ?

>>3965632
what about a picture of a lady with her clothes off instead?

>>3965618 (OP)
>gain exp and level up because you talked to people a lot and read some books
>now you can wear the heaviest armor and onehand a greatsword
no

>>3965618 (OP)
>EXP is an outdated and obsolete mechanic
No its not. It wouldn't be used otherwise. I do want some variety.

Why are people always trying to reinvent the wheel. Some motherfuckers always trying to skate uphill.

>>3970955
Because I demand bigger and better hero simulators. I will never be satisfied with inferior hero simulations.

>>3965618 (OP)
SaGa and similar games have been a thing for decades, you know that right?

>>3966490
I imagine this thread was made because there's been similar discussions on /tg/. For a long time now RPGs have tracked character progression by kills, but the original rules of DnD had the amount of gold you earn as EXP. It was considered a weird rule until recently, when people tried it and realized it actually allows for significant flexibility and creative strategies. Like you can have your party spec into stealth, or you can bait enemies into attacking each other and not worry about EXP loss. Naturally, people are reconsidering and experimenting with EXP as a concept, and it was only a matter of time until it leaked to vidya RPGs.

>>3965618 (OP)
It's another retarded relic of D&D, along with levelling, classes, hit points, dungeon crawling etc.

Statistics-based character progression is THE pillar of the genre. It's the one thing that ties all flavors of RPG together.

EXP is good actually and its not the games fault youre too retarded to stop yourself from grinding. Just play the fucking game like you say you want to.

>>3965618 (OP)
any game developer that says this then goes on to make a shittier system than a standard exp game, every single time.

the only one i ever liked were the gameboy saga games

>>3965618 (OP)
I've been working on a game without EXP and after a while I had to cave and use them anyway.

The main thing is that EXP are very flexible. Systems like exploration rewards or resource based power can work, but they require you to adapt the game towards them while experience points don't. Simple example: alchemy themed game where you gain stats from materials. Works fine with one player character, but if you're party based you now have to deal with players funneling all resources to one character.

EXP is an abstraction that every player understands, a very granular reward for any activity and an idiot-proof way to make players stronger.
In any exploration based progression the delta between good and bad players is much larger and thus you'll have more difficulty tuning the difficulty. And a player might end up frustrated because they missed a key ability in the starting area. In contrast, with EXP you can ensure that players will eventually catch up to your content.

Of course you can use EXP simply as the backbone for your other systems. Dragon's Dogma 2 for example has you unlock some classes through a quest and others through meeting teachers, and then later on your ultimate abilities through class quests. But a more common example is equipment: add some horizontal progression to items instead of just bigger number to make the items really interesting, then make some special pieces for quests. That should give you the feeling of meaningful exploration while still letting the dev have the detailed control of player power from EXP.

>>3965622
I agree, Zelda relies on mechanically intuitive and enjoyable systems wheras the vast majority of RPG exploit basic arithmetic to make you enjoy them.

>>3970662
this is a pretty fair take

>>3965618 (OP)
RPGs without XP aren't new. Betrayal at Krondor didn't have XP or levelling, and it came out in 1993.

>>3965618 (OP)
No, games should reward grinding.

>>3965618 (OP)
IF Level is greater than or equal to the enemy level by 3, THEN EXP equals 0

Wow, so hard.